SPN 4x18: late to the party

[rivkat]

So, I (1) felt very much that a boundary had been violated in the early minutes, but because that’s how we must make them feel, I deemed it a fair cop, if not fun for me; (2) intellectually thought the episode was fantastic, saying neat things about characters/authors/free will/destiny, and also addressing the audience with what was really more sympathy than I expected, except that I didn’t want to be addressed; and (3) wanted my emo porn back, but had trouble fully enjoying the good character bits, especially the ones with Sam and Dean actually interacting, because of lingering shakiness from (1)—perhaps it will be easier on rewatch. Still, Sam finally got his supernatural therapist! Yay!

That aside, and trying not to replicate too much of what I’ve seen elsewhere:

First, where is the fic explaining where Dean learned to use his “I-statements” to resolve conflicts? I’ll take anything: Dean reads Cosmo (about as many half-naked women in there as in the Victoria’s Secret catalog, after all) after he’s run out of Vonnegut. Or: Dean in high school is sent to the counselor after a fight. Later, he meets up with a guy who said some nasty things about the Winchesters, says “when you say those things, it makes me feel like I want to kick your ass,” and proceeds to do so, ultimately concluding that the I-statement just delayed the pleasant ass-kicking portion of the encounter.

Second, prophecy, hunh? A: I think it’s fascinating that Castiel said that what Chuck writes will come true, because we know that Castiel is wrong: Chuck didn’t write down the blood-drinking. So prophecy is not what Castiel thinks it is—Chuck isn’t God, but he has a kind of control, and that may be important, especially if he chooses (under duress) not to tell the Winchesters what he’s seen.

B: this issue of distortion by the prophet ties into the conception of creativity expressed. Unlike, say, Mulder in the XF episode that did this, the Winchesters don’t get to talk to the author (Author?). Or, when Dean does, he’s yelling up at the sky, and God isn’t listening, even if Castiel is. Chuck, the supposed author, doesn’t have much in the way of control over his characters. His control is exercised by not writing down everything that he knows. As cesperanza said to me, another implication of this is that the apocrypha may be just as true. Chuck wrote down the version that he wanted to see, even though that was just one aspect of the Winchesters. The fanfic writers may write down what they see/sense happening to these characters, who exist outside of Chuck’s consciousness. This is part of why I found the episode very receptive to fan interpretations at a meta level, even as I didn’t want or need that direct an address.

Third, cesperanza also pointed out that, despite her affect, the publisher’s questions were very much fanboy questions: numbers, song titles. Yes, we fangirls know these things—though I admit, like Sam, I forgot that we knew his LSAT (only 174, Sam? No wonder you picked Stanford [/supersnide])—but, seriously, fellow fangirls: are those the questions you’d ask? Maybe she was targeting her questions to presumed fanboys, though.

Fourth, okay, it was kind of a mess at the level of plot. But I like the idea of an archangel following Chuck around quite mechanically, ignoring everything else despite the threat Lilith poses. It fits into my preferred theories that the angels aren’t actually opposed to the apocalypse and that God is out of the game, leaving everything up for interpretation by humans, angels, and demons.

Other: Thanks to hulamoth for the cool sunglasses!

Also, I'm sure you've all seen this, but Sequential Tart has an awesome interview with Catherine Tosenberger on the Epic Love Story of Sam and Dean. Has she blogged about 4x18 yet?

Comments

[snake-easing.livejournal.com]

There was a certain amount of uncertainty about free will, I thought. When Dean went to get Chuck after Castiel "let slip" the archangel thing, Chuck said, "I didn't write this!" Which implies that Castiel, at least, has free will. The fact that Dean couldn't get out of it on his own (the "red" motel, not getting into a minivan accident, etc) implies that he does have a destiny, as people keep telling him, and thus only has limited free will.

[justabi.livejournal.com]

I liked that there was this whole prophecy thing going on, where what Chuck wrote always happened but at the same time, there was also this free will wild card where what Chuck saw wasn't all that was going to happen. Also, you know that sort of classic Greek tragedy cliche about knowing your future and trying to avert it is what makes that future happen got it's feet wet, but also, the more logical knowing what's coming gives you an edge thing got in there, too. I liked it for it's paradoxical fun times (which they seem totally enamored with this season) and for the gags (which they totally seem enamored with this season). Dean ordering tofu! Little girl first aide sparkle plasters! I am The Prophet Chuck! So much goodness.

But I'm totally with you on the squicky discomfort of being freaking called out on the show, man. I totally squirmed! And squealed! And laughed too loud!

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

Castiel said that what Chuck writes will come true, because we know that Castiel is wrong: Chuck didn’t write down the blood-drinking.

I've been thinking about this since you said it on Friday, and I don't think it's quite true. Chuck didn't write down the blood-drinking, but while we didn't actually see the text, I don't think we're meant to infer that he replaced it with a scene where Sam nobly refused to drink Ruby's blood. Rather, he just left it out altogether. Which means that at best Chuck is a filter rather than a reviser.

Now, a selective truth can be very misleading, so that gives them a little room to play, but I think we are still left with an absolute known truth, and Castiel is right: if Chuck writes it down, it will happen. It's just that if he doesn't write it down, that doesn't mean it won't happen.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

I agree he didn't write the noble refusal, but that makes almost everything up for grabs--it puts us in "it's prophesied that the Master will kill Buffy" territory. And as you know, Bob, I firmly believe that misleading is often more powerful in fooling people than false.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I do agree with that. But based on this episode I am not super-optimistic that they will go the BTVS route. The characters don't seem to have that kind of sophisticated relationship with texts! No one tried to get Chuck to write down anything else. No one tried to write anything themselves.

They have pleasantly defied my expectations so far this season, though, so maybe I'll be wrong again.

[deadlychameleon.livejournal.com]

The fanfic writers may write down what they see/sense happening to these characters, who exist outside of Chuck’s consciousness.

That is a very good point. *likes having smrt people on her flist*

Gay incest might make them less - sympathetic - too. *smirks*

re: the publisher's questions, (and you can stop gloating about your undoubtedly high LSAT scores, I'm not telling you what mine were, but they weren't 174, cf notes on why I'm in grad school not law school)

Those were serious fanboy questions, I didn't know the answers. I haven't memorized that kind of data about a show since I was 16 (yes, I still remember Fox Mulder's birthday(10-13-61), apt. number(42 hahaha), Scully's apt. number (402) etc.).

[maerhys.livejournal.com]

First, where is the fic explaining where Dean learned to use his “I-statements” to resolve conflicts? I’ll take anything: Dean reads Cosmo (about as many half-naked women in there as in the Victoria’s Secret catalog, after all) after he’s run out of Vonnegut. Or: Dean in high school is sent to the counselor after a fight. Later, he meets up with a guy who said some nasty things about the Winchesters, says “when you say those things, it makes me feel like I want to kick your ass,” and proceeds to do so, ultimately concluding that the I-statement just delayed the pleasant ass-kicking portion of the encounter.

If I didn't have nine zillion other things to write, I'd write this in a minute. I really wish someone would.

I knew all the answers aside from the tie for Dean's favorite songs. O__o

Does CT keep a blog? If so, can I get the link?

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Re the fic: Yeah, I know just what you mean.

I don't know if she does. I was just hoping.

[hulamoth.livejournal.com]

you're welcome! I realized that I missed your birthday, and you've written me two fics and I've done very little in return to thank you. Happy Pesach and spring and all that!