How Gay Is Superman?

[rivkat]

LA Times story. Excerpt from the Advocate story that sparked it.

Cover:


Best blog post title answering the question.

Bonus: actual trading card in which Superman comes out of the closet.

Comments

[yahtzee63.livejournal.com]

These are great.

I do think the LA Times is reaching when it says the homoerotic content is what killed "Batman and Robin." I think being an excruciatingly bad movie is what killed "Batman and Robin." That's what nearly killed me about it, anyway.

[mskatej.livejournal.com]

Agreed. The reason that film bombed is because it's truly, offensively bad. The gay had nothing to do with its failure.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

This is actually a great example of the effects of preexisting bias on attributions of causation. If you believe "people don't like gay movies," that allows you to blame a movie's failure on its gayness, even though "people don't like bad movies" is a much more well-established proposition. I have a friend who uses Elektra as an example -- plenty of superhero movies have failed, but Elektra is used to show that people won't go to female-carried movies.

[mskatej.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I don't think Superman's gayness will put off teenagers or conservatives. They probably won't even *notice* that press. And gay or not, he's still the most famous of all the superheroes. If it doesn't do well at the box office it'll be because it's a sucky film, not because the main character is "gay".

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

Hiya [waves] new reader - that trading card is awfully perfect. heh. Hmm, I have a copy of the advocate article in my bag... I guess I should read it... the author basically breaks down the gay appeal of superheroes into three points: like most gay kids, superheroes have to keep their "difference" a secret, comic books=soap operas and, third, superheroes are totally hot - which pretty much sums up why I read comics. Well, if you substitute "gay kids" for geeky outsider... that said, in both cases, the idea that what seperates you from the crowd also makes you extraordinary exerts a powerful draw.

[raveninthewind.livejournal.com]

That's why I've always liked comies, I guess: my "other" status was a big part of my identity as a child and adolescent.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Hi back! I've seen these points made before about "closeted" superheroes. What interests me is the mainstreaming of the argument, with the implication in the LA Times article that it's dangerous to general success. But, as you said, there are lots of reasons to feel like an outsider, and if pop culture can recognize that the universal appeal includes an appeal to gays & lesbians, all the better.

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

"Mainstreaming" is a good word for it, since the "Gay is the new BlackAfrican-American" theme has been debated and discussed in the genre media for a while now, at least since the 80s and the explosion of X-Men/New Mutants/X-Factor popularity. Chris Claremont did a lot to create an explicit thematic link between homophobia and mutants, particularly in the New Mutants and X-Factor books, the latter of which used "anti-mutant" propaganda directed at teen mutants a frequent plot point.

Anyway, digression - what is interesting is to see the "gay subtext" question applied to a character as iconic in American culture as Superman. The idea of Superman as a "gay" character/allegory is pretty subversive - what would mom and apple pie say? At the same time, I think it reflects that there's a growing tension within American culture itself over national identity as concerns about social success in terms of legal equality and acceptance within the larger community supercede the old 'immigrant makes good' paradigm.

Uh... does that make any sense?

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting contrast between traditional narratives of immigrant success (which implicitly included adopting all or most preexisting American values) and diversity/acceptance. I wonder how DC's Elseworlds fit in -- there hasn't been one in which Kal-El's skin wasn't "white." Supreme Power has done fascinating things with Batman/Nighthawk (as well as the other big DC characters), but now I wonder if that wasn't pulling its punches, so to speak: What would it mean for the greatest superhero of all to be something other than a straight white male?

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

What would it mean for the greatest superhero of all to be something other than a straight white male?

Good question because, even though I figure I'm pretty gay-positive as these things go (for a white Canadian of Anglo-Irish descent raised Catholic) but there's a part of me that goes "neeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrr" at the idea of a homosexual Superman - and I don't know if that's resistance to messing with established characters or homophobia: if Superman wants to marry Jimmy instead of Lois, does that make him less heroic? Culturally, North America is still working on creating heroic narratives for female characters that realistically balance ideas of heroism and physical courage with the "feminine" attributes - I had to stop watching Alias because I couldn't accept that any undercover agent would be quite so fucking weepy - I'm not sure the mainstream is ready to accept the idea of homosexuality in our "heroes". I dunno.

It's an interesting question that I'm not sure anyone has a good answer for because gay characters, particularly in the Superhero genre, have yet to move beyond the level of patishe - the "gay" Batman and Superman analogues in The Authority, for example.

[irishabastard.livejournal.com]

While forced to admit that I haven't been able to track down a meaning for patishe, Marvel is much better at diversity in all its forms than DC. In the new Ultimates line, Peter Rasputin (Colossus) is gay, and Northstar has been gay as long as I can remember. Arguably the most powerful mutant in the universe is a woman (Jean 'Phoenix' Gray), Magneto is Jewish, there are also multiple main characters who are of Asian, Hispanic, and African descent.

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

While forced to admit that I haven't been able to track down a meaning for patishe

Um, helps if I spell it correctly: a 'pastiche' is a picture or musical composition made up of pieces from established works or a story written in the style of a well-know author and I kind of blend to two meanings here to say that comics have their "gay batman" types but no original gay characters as the central character in their own books. At least so far.

[brownbetty]

I wonder how DC's Elseworlds fit in -- there hasn't been one in which Kal-El's skin wasn't "white."

But there was one pre-crisis Earth where Superman was black, as was, I believe, Supergirl, (although they were married, unlike the Superman most people are familiar with.) Of course, he got kaboomed out of existence.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

My pre-Crisis knowledge is all but nonexistent, and I don't remember that Earth from my big illustrated guide to Superman. Do you remember where they show up -- just in Crisis, or in other comics before that? Does anyone from outside their continuity say anything about their skin color?

[shiba-inu.livejournal.com]

You know, if your ignorance on this topic really bothers you then you should take yourself down to either Borders or Barnes & Noble. Their graphic novel sections usually carry a hardcover encyclopedia (both DC and Marvel) that will fix you right up.

[brownbetty]

My pre-crisis knowledge is also very small. So far as I know, they only show up in the Superhero-palooza that is the crisis.

I believe the "d" stands for dork.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

That universe (Earth-D) only appeared in a single issue of Legends of the DC Universe, which was an anthology title of "missing scenes" from various bygone eras, sort of. (there was a flashback Batgirl story, a Barry Allen three-parter, etc.) So even though the story was published in February 1999, it functions as a missing part of "Crisis on Infinite Earths." It was written by Marv Wolfman.

Earth-D's heroes are generally more diverse than ours; there's also an Asian guy who's The Flash, and I think I recall Hawkman and Hawkgirl being Egyptian or Indian or something like that.

(Then their universe explodes.)

Re: I believe the "d" stands for dork.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

(Then their universe explodes.)

Too bad, then!

Thanks for the detailed information.

I want to say this discussion all has something to do with Teyla stabbing people with knives, but it's too complicated and would probably get me stabbed.