SPN question re: Dean/Castiel and violence

[rivkat]

I am fond of Dean/Castiel that deals fairly with Sam, and I like Castiel as a character a great deal. That said, anyone have a line on a story in which, post-apocalypse or post-apocalypse averted, Castiel makes a move and Dean decides that part of being a functional grown-up is not sleeping with people who beat you up when you anger them? (Along with not beating other people—Sam—up himself, of course. Dean hasn’t exactly covered himself with glory on the domestic violence front, but this is a season of change.) I mean, if Castiel’s model for human relationships is the Winchesters, I’d recommend therapy first, at least.

Comments

[amonitrate]

Yes, thank you. I have seen these same excuses thrown around in other discussions of that episode, and it continually disturbs me how much people tend to identify with the abuser when it comes to the characters on this show, rather than the one abused.

Bringing up John would probably start a wankstorm, but I see it in discussions of him as well.

[rivkat]

I have also been thinking about John and wondering when he did more than raise his voice. I can definitely see him using his belt for discipline. Plus the whole difference between "best he could under the circumstances" (arguable, though I think less so now that we know about Adam; I wanted to resurrect John and let him see Dean's reaction to the stuff about birthdays and baseball games) and "in any way healthy," which is the background for Dean's failure to understand the role of beating and being beaten in an intimate relationship.

Castiel has suffered his own form of emotional (and physical) abuse; those to whom evil is done do evil in return. I just want it acknowledged as such.

[amonitrate]

I have also been thinking about John and wondering when he did more than raise his voice. I can definitely see him using his belt for discipline....which is the background for Dean's failure to understand the role of beating and being beaten in an intimate relationship.

Yes. Dean's reactions towards Sam, using violence when he's upset, was a red flag for me. There are little hints here and there, nothing particularly concrete, but I wouldn't be surprised if there had been some level of physical abuse in the Winchester family.

I really appreciate the way the show has dealt with the deep dysfunction of the Winchester family, because John was an abusive parent who clearly loved his kids, and this isn't typically how abusive parents are portrayed in media. Usually they're THE EVIL STEPMOTHER/FATHER and lack any kind of sympathetic characterization. Which is patently unrealistic.

[rivkat]

And now I'm totally going to recommend Split again, because I think it's another great, painful version of the abusive loving parent.

[amonitrate]

i will have to check it out!

[readingz]

If it's the abuser behavior you want to understand you have to try their POV, i think. It's quite obvious to me that it's all up to the victim, it's their decision if they want to forgive whoever hurt them, them being able to decide is the whole point for me. Has Castiel ever been violent towards Dean before? Because I don't remember it and I insist, abuse is not once, abuse is consistent behavior. Abuse is always wrong, even in cases where the victim has the resources to leave and doesn't but jumping at any kind of violence as automatically abuse seems a bit extremist to me. I mean, I think about fighting with my sisters and sure, I didn't beat them up or them me, but it was violence none the less and I don't think it was wrong, I think it wasn't very nice and that we could have probably solved our differences in better ways but I also think it's a hallmark of intimacy to be able to show someone a part of yourself that's not socially acceptable.

There's no harm on some violence, as long as it's *limited* and you don't bash someone's head in because they stole your toys. I read Castiel's reaction here as the reaction of someone who has given up everything for someone and had that someone forget their sacrifice and Dean's as someone's who understands violence as a way to express your feelings. Now, Dean is obviously messed up in a number of ways but the way in which he shrugs off physical pain is not necessarily related to domestic violence in his past, it could be that the guy gets beaten up almost to death on a weekly basis and has been tortured in Hell and so really, it isn't a big deal for him to get punched and thrown against walls. So if he chooses to accept the incident as acceptable, as part of a language he understands, even accept Castiel's anger as something he earned, well, *I* wouldn't but I have agreed that pulling my hair was forgivable and, ultimately, I think your limits are your choice and not respecting other people's choices is the worse thing you can do to them.

Which segues into Castiel deciding Dean's suicidal plan is not a choice he's allowed to make, which everybody reads as suicide-watch but if Dean *wants* to sacrifice himself, who has the right to stop him?

Basically, I'm not sure one set of morals fit all.

[(Anonymous)]

When I was talking about people identifying with the abuser, I was referring to the way people talked about/excused Cas's actions in that episode. Not necessarily that Cas's actions were abuse per se, though I think you can make that argument, especially if as Rivka did in her original request for fic, you are talking about an established cas/dean relationship.

It is the way people have repeatedly excused the violence and give it legitimacy that I object to, because as the commenter I responded to pointed out, they tend to use the very same framing and words as abusers use to excuse/rationalize/justify their actions.

And frankly, none of that was present in the show. So I find it disturbing.

[amonitrate]

crap that was me.