Seeking input

[rivkat]

I have an abiding interest in cliches/standard plots, because they distill so much of what I love about fan fiction into more concentrated form. So now, I seek your assistance in brainstorming. What scenes/events/tropes/whatever do you like to see in a genderswap story? (Obviously, if you don't like those stories, that's cool; feel free to suggest a scene you would like to see in such stories but somehow never do, or even to tell me what's wrong with genderswap stories, or just to skip merrily on by.) Thus: X wakes up and is suddenly a girl. What should happen to him?

Comments

Not related to anything.

[thornsilver]

I love your icon! (With burning luv of a thousand suns.)

Re: Not related to anything.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I thought the picture was pretty awesome. I like that Miss Piggy is rarely ashamed to be herself, though I wish she wouldn't so often define herself by reference to a man -- er, a frog.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Um, masturbation is a classic for a reason.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

So true.

[giandujakiss.livejournal.com]

A few genderswap stories are realistic in the sense that they are tragic - someone just lost his or her identity. More commonly they're a bit comic. The guy discovers the awesomeness of female orgasm and generally isn't that upset. Which, from women writers, is understandable. Lots of enjoyment of female clothing.

Mary Sueish elements too. The other half of the pairing is enchanted, lustful,jealous of other men. The "woman" gets hersel into physical trouble and is protected or at least cooed over by the OTP.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

So which, if any, of these *work* for you? Jealousy is of course another opportunity to adore the pretty object. Do you want to see rescues? Or the discovery of new privileges?

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

i've spent so much time thinking about genderswap lately, I don't even know where to start :) [i just sent off an abstract for an essay and spent a lot of time rereading and thinking about this..]

it depends for me if it's a story just reveling in tropes and examining what it means to be female (i.e., here I like especially the different body as not all negative, i.e., different physical abilities and how others suddenly perceive him differently) or if it's a story addressing queer and/or trans issues.

as i'm going through my favorites, though, they're all different, so i'm not even sure what it is...

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

I'm going to send you something which may illuminate my reasons for asking. I am interested in filling in the gaps. Um, so to speak.

[bagheera-san.livejournal.com]

I think the physical aspects (omg, I have boobies! sex with another guy, cramps, pregnancy, whatever) have been done almost to death. What I might like to see is X experimenting with lesbian sex instead of immediately embracing his switched heterosexuality.

I'd love to see more of the social aspects, though. Particularly some interaction between X and his female relatives/friends. Also, in case X has enemies/rivals, I'd love to see interaction with them.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Enemies! What a great idea.

[cryptoxin.livejournal.com]

I don't know the fanfic genre, but I'd love to see an initial period where X tries to hide the genderswap from other people and continue to pass as male-bodied. Sort of along the lines of Shakespeare comedies et al.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

That sounds really cool. I can't actually think of any genderswap stories where a character tries that (beyond the standard "hiding in the bathroom for the first couple of hours") but I bet it happened, at least in bandslash.

[ladyagnew.livejournal.com]

One thing which I always like in genderswap stories is X wakes up as a girl and learns a kind of physical confidence in their body. Not just sexual -- though that is nice -- but gendered. Up to and including a sense of, 'this is not so bad; being stuck like this would have its benefits'.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Yes! Thanks.

[wearemany.livejournal.com]

this story (http://brushstrokes.livejournal.com/9075.html) has ruined me in the best way possible for genderswap. i, uh, can't exactly figure out how to say why (and fully answer your question) w/o giving away a major ending thing, so if bandslash/rps isn't your thing and you want me to tell you, let me know.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

... goes off to read.

[amandajane5.livejournal.com]

Guys always talk about how if they had breasts they'd play with them all day, except for that really, that wouldn't be fun at all - I'd love to see a guy discover that!

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Heh. There does seem to be an abiding interest in what it feels like for a boy/girl.

[chase820.livejournal.com]

Well, there's the inevitable texting of subtext when guy's best friend with whom he's always had a charged relationship becomes irresistibly attracted to female him. Some good Supernatural Sam/Dean fics play with this. (Those also encompass incest issues but that's another kettle o' tropes.)

This way, one gets to have one's slash and one's het at the same time. Beautiful, really. But what do you call it? 'Slet'? 'Hash'?

I like 'Hash.'

Of course, I may just be flashing back to your Clex story (whose title escapes me for some odd reason) where Clark turns into a really, really hot chick and ends up moving into Luthor manor, and in the end when he switches back he realizes Lex always knew it was him because Lex is just that damn good. Man, I love that story.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you remember that story fondly! I like it too (see above re: cliches). I wanted to write a version where it ended badly, because Lex was too heterosexual -- helen did a great boyband story like that -- but. Lex is not too heterosexual.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Something accentuating the positives as well as the negatives--not going to the undiluted angst extreme of OMG THE OPPRESSION OF BEING A WOMAN" negative or the OMG AWESOME NEW SEX on the positive. A balance between what is lost to what is gained; ie lost muscle mass for speed, for a random physical example, or hell, with current psychological study, being able to better multitask as a woman (no, no idea how to express that one). Pleasure in more than the sexual or sexualized components of it, I think. Maybe also, oddly, the emphasis on how little changes the "person" inside the skin, even if the experinces are going to differ.

I hope that makes sense.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

It does. I like boyband genderswap (at least the older generation; I have not been following recent bandom much) because those guys are already used to being looked at, evaluated for their physiques, and otherwise feminized; the genderswap then provides some space to ask about the differences between feminization and femaleness.

[shiba-inu.livejournal.com]

I like what bageera_san proposed: new person in body uses tactics/techniques which are familiar to them but never tried by old person in that body. There would be great surprise on the part of both enemies and friends.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Hmmm ... do you have anything specific in mind? There is an attraction in the idea "I have a blank slate, I can start over" -- but say (just for example) you were being hunted by the FBI -- what could you try that would be new?

[katesnotes.livejournal.com]

I must say that in genderswap stories I quite enjoy it when the newly changed into a girl character gets angry at the still a boy character and yells at them for not understanding. The not understanding can be about either; the loss of the change itself or the issues of being a girl (bras, periods etc). Then the boy character often goes off and finds some female friend to help with the specific issues.

Also in My Chemical Romance slash (which I am very new to) there are a few stories where no one can tell that the characters have changed. Unfortunately the only one I can track down at the moment is this one.
http://cimorene.net/cimorene/band/wakeupandnotice.html (sorry for the lack of proper linking)

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[slinkling.livejournal.com]

I haven't really read enough genderswap to be knowledgeable about the cliches and tropes of it. Or at least, they don't come readily to mind, though I recognize a few (masturbation, for example) upon seeing them in the comments here.

I've been thinking about the scenario, though, and one thing I don't think I've come across, but would like to, is the change in the psychosexual landscape that would come about. If male to female, the sudden and unfamiliar vulnerability. If female to male, the new potential for power and aggression. (Forgive me for using potentially offensive gender stereotypes here, but you DID ask for cliches.) In either case, I'm sure it's not the first thing X would think about, but I can imagine some scene -- perhaps one dealing with known enemies, or even just the dark-alley-late-at-night scenario -- where that new physical/psychological element comes into play.

On a lighter note, there's a lot about having our gendered bodies that we get used to during puberty, that I imagine would be somewhat startling if one were suddenly genderswapped. Female to male, there'd be the issue of having an appendage that acts on its own. Male to female, all the joys of the menstrual cycle, from sore breasts to mood swings and cramps.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Very interesting. Maybe we don't see the vulnerability portrayed in male-to-female genderswap stories so much because it's an uncomfortable reminder about our own vulnerability (and the characters we see genderswapped often have various protective privileges like wealth).

Menstruation is one of the recurring issues in stories I've read, along with masturbation.

[margueritem.livejournal.com]

I think it was Lenore who wrote this SGA story, where she touches a bit on what it means to be a woman, instead of a man, in a basically patriarchal world. Rodney can't be quite all that happy with a relationship with John started as a girl, but also he wants his privileges back.

To the genderswap theme could be considered related the stories where the character was *always* a woman. Now, I wish I could remember the story which was a response to that story where Rodney is a woman (our Rodney ends up in the Meredith!universe, who is pregnant): the author loved the story, but wanted to show that gender does change who someone is. *tries to remember*

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

For some reason the "always a woman" stories have sparked less of a reaction in me in the past than triggered genderswap -- I think because I like the Tiresias idea of seeing it from both sides. I like situations in which characters themselves notice how things change, though stories that leave it to the readers to notice can also be very interesting.

[jain]

I love stories in which a gay boy wakes up female and is a little blindsided by a sudden interest in/fascination with lesbian sex, even as (s)he continues to find boys more attractive. Actual indulgence in this interest before (s)he inevitably hooks up with a male friend is a huge bonus. :-)

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Hunh. I guess I've always imagined that one's sexual orientation would stay the same (though its name/social meaning etc. would flip), but that's actually a weird assumption now that you've gotten me to think about it. If the body matters, and if women are more likely to be a bit more fluid sexually, then lesbian sex as a woman could totally make sense.

[grlnamedlucifer.livejournal.com]

Well I love genderswitch stories (woke-up-a-girl or always been one), but I've personally always liked this Buffy genderswitch story (http://members.tripod.com/sentinel-cat/Scorpio/a_son_of_cain_a_daughter_of_.htm) by Scorpio, because it deals with the trauma of losing one's identity because of the switch (and other things in the story, but mostly that) and how to make and deal with a new life and new body (beyond just sexuality too, which is part of it, but also just relearning how to fight or even dress). Also brings up how their guy friend helping is great and all, but it's not like *they* know how to be a girl either.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Thank you! People have offered such a variety -- I didn't really know what was out there.

[maggiebloome.livejournal.com]

Well, I'd like to see the freaking out simply because most genderswap stories don't bother with it. It's a bit disrespectful to actual transsexual people. That said, I can see someone not being too freaked if he knows it's just temporary, and then settling into "I've only got these breasts for a few days, may as well make the most of them."

"My eyes are up here" is always good for laughs. As are spandex issues in the event of superhero - "my costume doesn't fit any more... :("

Pretending to be your own sister or your love interest's girlfriend is also a classic. Although pretending to be your best-friend-amazingly-not-a-love-interest's girlfriend is much funnier.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

I think we may tend to project our own comfort in our bodies onto our favorite male characters, so that we accept an unrealistic (whatever that means in this context) level of freaked-out-ness. It's the involuntary nature that matters most -- which I think ties gender back into sex.

Own sister is good!

Also, I love your icon.

[j-bluestocking.livejournal.com]

I have no memory to speak of, so I may have read this already -- er, for all I know, you may have written it SO PLEASE DON'T HATE ME IF YOU DID -- but I'd like to see two seemingly contradictory things happen:

New girl realizes s/he is not really different from the way he was before; that there is no sudden spiritual change that affects his/her basic personality. Now, you would think you learn from this that men and women are pretty much the same, as people, so, hey, you can relax a little. No one's going to find out that you're not really a chick; you're not gonna get thrown out of the women's restroom.

But then you realize there's something wrong, because you get on people's nerves a little. They start telling you to lighten up. Some maybe ask if you dislike them. And you think they're crazy, you think *you're* crazy, and finally you really start to get that as a woman, you'd better smile more and nod and give the signs of empathic listening when somebody's talking to you, or they think you're cold and weird. (And I'm sure you've noticed this, but men have a way of kidding with other men in a tone that's humorous but very hard-edged; they understand how the game works with other men, but might not know what to make of that sort of thing if it comes from a woman. OTOH, maybe the newly minted woman does it so naturally that it actually works, and the guys think she's cool.)

Or maybe you cope by learning the exact degree you need to smile and nod -- and when you're male once more you have to train yourself to turn all that off, because people are reacting to you strangely again.

Hmm. Depending on the protag, it might even be interesting to reference that phenomenon whereby men who behaved angrily after exiting a job interview (this was a psychology experiment) were perceived as strongly qualified candidates; women who expressed anger were perceived as "out of control" and poorly qualified. For example, if Lex Luthor gets shocked attention from his subordinates when he loses his temper and throws something across the room, the same behavior as a woman gets muttered complaints about the crazy chick they're working for.

...Or maybe not. Lotta psychology material here. Y'know, there's nothing wrong with going for the classics and just making him wear three-inch heels.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

I have written one previous genderswap, but it wasn't that. I was thinking about that earlier story as a result of these conversations; I wrote Clark as not changing much, and as not interacting much with the same people so he didn't notice much of what you describe from anyone but his parents. But Clark has always been an alien, passing, so I think his reactions would be muted in a way a "real" girl's wouldn't.

And I'm pleased to read that your instincts match mine: the character doesn't change, except that the world reads the character differently, and that means that s/he has to change, if only to try to stay the same.

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

Have you ever read Orlando by Virgina Woolf? The main character in that piece has exactly this happen to them--it's interesting.

It's not my genre in fic, but I think that realization that the flat bits were now round and the outie was now an innie would be integral to the piece.

Also, sorting out clothes--what to wear, how to put it on, how it feels/hangs differently.

-noticing other people noticing your body (for any reason)

-sorting out bathroom things

etc. Good luck with it :D

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Shamefully, my Woolf is limited to a volume of her diaries, but it's a good point!

[(Anonymous)]

Everything that happens in Skin Deep. Which is still the genderswap story that pings my kinks the best, after who knows how many rereads.

(anon due to being without a fannish lj at present)

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Hey, that's great to hear!

[haphazardmethod.livejournal.com]

Add my enthusiastic thumbs up to those who loved Skin Deep. My favorite part of genderswap has to do with the reactions of the people around him/her. Do they treat the switcher differently, consciously or unconsciously? Are they more protective of a girl? How does walking down a city alley at 3 a.m. become a much different prospect as a girl? What effect do these reactions have on the the person who switched? How much of being a boy is being perceived as one and what is less mutable? On the flip side, if I never have to read another menstruation joke in a genderswap story, I'd be thrilled.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

I think I missed this comment on the first go-round -- I always like to say thanks to people who provide feedback! I agree, I'm hugely interested in others' reactions. But there are always confounding factors if they knew the person before -- it would be weird to know someone who underwent an involuntary sex change; it would destabilize so much of the world we know.

Menstruation is a classic, but I like the idea of the female-to-male realizing that she really is more controlled by her sexual reactions as a guy. It's weird that the stereotypes attribute uncontrolled emotionality to women but lack of control specifically in regard to sex to men. Patriarchy is weird.

[meret.livejournal.com]

I'd love to see a male character really understand that a huge amount of stuff we take as normal for society is actually male privilege, and for him to remember it afterwards, for it to effect his behavior. It should be a world altering experience on more than just the physical level. I'd also want him to understand the different societal expectations placed on women.

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

Did you see the comment above on getting told to smile? There would be no way to stay the same, because the reactions would be so different.